Suggestions to increase farming capabilities with progression

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khuk

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Dec 16, 2018
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#21
First and foremost sorry if my spelling or grammar is off as I’m currently on my phone.

To be honest Paragon Boxes which are extremely rare can only be farmed by higher leveled players with good levels.

With what you’re suggesting while it won’t cause inflation it will crash the MP market.

What you want to do is not crash a market, but to stabilize it and adding drops to later game players is simply not the way to go about doing it as that makes it easy to manipulate
Would you mind explaining clearer how it would crash the MP market?
To me, as long as the rate is "reasonable", there won't be any market crash. If it's that bad, you can just make newer upgrade box untradeable btw, but I really don't think reasonable drop rate will crash the market.

Regarding manipulation, I also don't really agree. How is high level content easier to manipulate than low level content? If bots are what you mean, I don't necessarily suggest adding upgrade boxes to training spots. Adding it to a place where deliberate gameplay is required should be OK (partly why I suggest higher tier of MP Tbh, but MP suggestions are banned so whatever).
 
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Konada

New member
Jul 21, 2018
25
5
3
Singapore
#22
First and foremost sorry if my spelling or grammar is off as I’m currently on my phone.

What exactly do you mean by “GM can run a bot and figure out how to detect them”?

At the end of the day botting is part of playing a F2P MMORPG. There is honestly only a handful of things people can do before needing to invest tons of money into software that may help prevent this(even then, easily bypassed).

While I do agree that the earning method is a bit flipped due to the rent reliance on monster park, I don’t personally think it’s a big issue as everyone has access to monster park and that’s what technically makes it “fair” l. If someone grinds out 12 hour days at MP then that’s on them for doing so. AriesMS has always been a pro-grind server. Once you start getting stronger on the server you usually stop MPing because you’ve done it so many hours already and that is why there are so many members hard stuck at 30-40j stat.,

If anything, I think we need an alternative farming location that yields less, but adds variety.
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To be honest Paragon Boxes which are extremely rare can only be farmed by higher leveled players with good levels.

With what you’re suggesting while it won’t cause inflation it will crash the MP market.

What you want to do is not crash a market, but to stabilize it and adding drops to later game players is simply not the way to go about doing it as that makes it easy to manipulate
I meant that bot programs are widely available on the internet and some quick research would show what bots are being used. All they have to do is to run a bot in AriesMS, decipher the behavior based on coding language and enact countermeasures to detect them.

I am arguing there is lack of equity in terms of farming content being available to higher tier players, mid-game to end-game while the best farming spot is still early game content. If anything, this is similar to the road GMS Reboot took with people creating suicide kannas because farming at higher tier maps was shit and hard to fund for.

I would agree that adding any kind of drops/meso injection as a countermeasure will only serve to destabilize the economy even further as there is more incentive to bot now, which is honestly a very huge restriction in the kind of solutions we can propose. Although I think khuk makes a good suggestion that making these upgrade boxes untradeable (I'd say character bound) can help alleviate high demand issues.

The bot problem is one that is hard to keep under control, more like a cat and mouse game all the time. If anything, farming content/balances must be developed around highly unique playstyles/gameplay that is hard to replicate for a bot.
 
Nov 30, 2018
47
3
8
Netherlands
#23
Would love to see a rare drop added similar to symbol droprate in arcane maps, incredible chaos of goodness, this only in elite map channels and the ones that require arcane force to kill in. This would increase the profit/hr a lot here since they would be best in slot, also give a lot of variety since you can farm in every map
 

Revelio

New member
Dec 9, 2018
3
4
3
Japan
#24
I meant that bot programs are widely available on the internet and some quick research would show what bots are being used. All they have to do is to run a bot in AriesMS, decipher the behavior based on coding language and enact countermeasures to detect them.
I don't think you know how bots work at all, or how does one detect botting activities for that matter. Decipher the behavior based on coding language? LOL.

Although I think khuk makes a good suggestion that making these upgrade boxes untradeable (I'd say character bound) can help alleviate high demand issues.
Since these new 'non-tradable upgrade boxes' are non-tradable, it doesn't make end-game players earn more. It only makes MP farmers earn less if anything. Which is ultimately your objective now that you are geared isn't it?

Regarding manipulation, I also don't really agree.
If there is supply & demand, there will be manipulation. Non-tradable upgrade boxes? Players will start to sell service. What will ensue? Scamming attempts. Reason why MP boxes became tradable? Heh, well go figure.
 
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Konada

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Jul 21, 2018
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Singapore
#25
If its possible, I suggest that for phase 3 of paragon, nova coins be droppable in paragon dungeons and affected by drop rate. Reasoning being that most players who have progressed this far would have the gears to 1shot mobs but insufficient range to do so if equipping drop rate gears. As such, it rewards players further into progression (who are able to farm efficiently while on drop gear) while allowing mid game players to choose between leveling efficiency or farming capabilities. Without injecting liquid currency which will inevitably buff bots as well.

An end-game scroll which allows you to increase cubing 27%/30% rates can also be implemented, but the tradeoff is that these equipments become character bound (much like Nova Pride medal) and untradeable. Another item can be used to make such end-game items tradeable but reduce their potentials at the same time to a lower rank. I believe such a measure can help to increase the meso sink by taking items out of the market, giving players an avenue to self-farm mesos/items while making progression slightly easier. Furthermore, such a method of self-cubing/starforcing takes out more meso than people trading off end-game gear, subjected to a 5% meso tax.
 

Alex

Active member
Jul 20, 2018
111
82
28
Ch 4 Bowman Instructional School
#26
but why......? Your suggestions make absolutely no sense.


Paragon Part 3 hasn’t even been released, why mess with paragon rewards at the moment? Wait until p3 comes out first.

The second part will effectively kill off the bpot market. Players who accidentally cube 27-30 percent items will have a smaller chance or a harder time of selling them off.

While end game does need a bit of work in terms of making things more fun & adding more things for stronger members to do I personally think overextending and adding unnecessary things are silly.
 

Konada

New member
Jul 21, 2018
25
5
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Singapore
#27
I
but why......? Your suggestions make absolutely no sense.


Paragon Part 3 hasn’t even been released, why mess with paragon rewards at the moment? Wait until p3 comes out first.

The second part will effectively kill off the bpot market. Players who accidentally cube 27-30 percent items will have a smaller chance or a harder time of selling them off.

While end game does need a bit of work in terms of making things more fun & adding more things for stronger members to do I personally think overextending and adding unnecessary things are silly.
I already said my first suggestion can be a consideration for p3.

Noted on bpot market being killed off, I can forsee that happening.

Yes ideas are just ideas and may not be sound. Which is why I put them here so others can sound out whether its viable.

Ideas that seem uneccessary and silly are part of the process to come up with novel ideas which hopefully can evolve gameplay/progression, by limiting ourselves to what is considered "normal" is a recipe for stagnation and kicking the problem down the road.
 
Nov 30, 2018
47
3
8
Netherlands
#28
Hope we can all just get back to supportive feedback and no feedback at all if you want to hammer something down.
I think the 27-30% items are nice with the scroll but only if it works on job specific equips, this way you get less lucky with the wrong stats, we all know the feeling rolling !$%&^%$# 13x other 27% before getting ur own one.
Also because we can roll 27-30% easier on bpot than on our job specific items the bpot prices will drop since we need less of them (used 130 stacks to fix 2 bpots lol)
 

Kit

Member
Oct 20, 2018
17
19
13
Singapore
#29
Hope we can all just get back to supportive feedback and no feedback at all if you want to hammer something down.
Someone has to tell you if your idea is not viable, or it will cause more harm than good. If an idea is not viable and unreasonable, I don't see why we shouldn't provide our inputs and "hammer something down". If you're not open to criticism then don't start a discussion, am I right?

I think the 27-30% items are nice with the scroll but only if it works on job specific equips, this way you get less lucky with the wrong stats, we all know the feeling rolling !$%&^%$# 13x other 27% before getting ur own one.
Correct me if I am wrong, but this doesn't make any sense at all. If you can only obtain these scrolls by being geared, I'd assume you are already at 27/30% bpot throughout your set. Then what is the point of have new equipment with these potentials that are non-tradable? It's not like you can transfer to your mules or sell them. In the scenario where you are not at 27/30% bpot, you would not be able to farm these scrolls. So what this proposed scroll would actually do for the players is simply, make your life easier after you hit the wall of progression. That means, no more buying bonus potential cubes from other players, hence disrupting the market. It isn't an added feature, it is simply a feature designed to make life easier for those stuck with cubing.

Again to reiterate, a scroll or function that allows a player to obtain 27/30% bpot at the end game phase which makes the item non-tradable is useless. If you're going to argue that you might still have a few gears without those potentials, then this feature proves my point of making your lives easier instead of solving the issue of "MP farmers earning too much" or "Increase end game farming potential".

Not that I want to shoot down this suggestion in particular, but suggesting a feature to make RNG easier on a game feature that is intended to be RNG is not viable. The only games that does these are P2W games, in which they increase your RNG chances if you purchase something. The rule is simple, don't mess with RNG aspects of the game.

Also because we can roll 27-30% easier on bpot than on our job specific items the bpot prices will drop since we need less of them (used 130 stacks to fix 2 bpots lol)
Again, only makes your life easier when you hit the wall of progression. Doesn't help with anything once you hit end game.
Scenario:
1. Player uses 10 stacks of bcubes and didn't get 27% bpot.
2. Players begs GM saying "Please just give me 27% bpot, I don't mind if you make my item non-tradable".

Basically the entire suggestion right there with the scrolls as proposed above. Also if I remember correctly, AriesMS wishes to stay as close to GMS as possible despite being a private server. Therefore I feel any suggestions to tweak the game too much from the norm will just get rejected anyways. However I do not speak for the staff team on this matter, these are just my own opinions.
 
Likes: Alex
Nov 30, 2018
47
3
8
Netherlands
#30
Someone has to tell you if your idea is not viable, or it will cause more harm than good. If an idea is not viable and unreasonable, I don't see why we shouldn't provide our inputs and "hammer something down". If you're not open to criticism then don't start a discussion, am I right?



Correct me if I am wrong, but this doesn't make any sense at all. If you can only obtain these scrolls by being geared, I'd assume you are already at 27/30% bpot throughout your set. Then what is the point of have new equipment with these potentials that are non-tradable? It's not like you can transfer to your mules or sell them. In the scenario where you are not at 27/30% bpot, you would not be able to farm these scrolls. So what this proposed scroll would actually do for the players is simply, make your life easier after you hit the wall of progression. That means, no more buying bonus potential cubes from other players, hence disrupting the market. It isn't an added feature, it is simply a feature designed to make life easier for those stuck with cubing.

Again to reiterate, a scroll or function that allows a player to obtain 27/30% bpot at the end game phase which makes the item non-tradable is useless. If you're going to argue that you might still have a few gears without those potentials, then this feature proves my point of making your lives easier instead of solving the issue of "MP farmers earning too much" or "Increase end game farming potential".

Not that I want to shoot down this suggestion in particular, but suggesting a feature to make RNG easier on a game feature that is intended to be RNG is not viable. The only games that does these are P2W games, in which they increase your RNG chances if you purchase something. The rule is simple, don't mess with RNG aspects of the game.



Again, only makes your life easier when you hit the wall of progression. Doesn't help with anything once you hit end game.
Scenario:
1. Player uses 10 stacks of bcubes and didn't get 27% bpot.
2. Players begs GM saying "Please just give me 27% bpot, I don't mind if you make my item non-tradable".

Basically the entire suggestion right there with the scrolls as proposed above. Also if I remember correctly, AriesMS wishes to stay as close to GMS as possible despite being a private server. Therefore I feel any suggestions to tweak the game too much from the norm will just get rejected anyways. However I do not speak for the staff team on this matter, these are just my own opinions.
the thing isn't for me indeed, it's for others. I don't mind wasting 80-90 stacks on an item, since well when its done its done. But cause we are getting at these points the bpot stacks go up in price a lot so newer players get less encouraged to go for it. So this suggestion isn't for any of us but for newer players
 

Lyza

New member
Sep 12, 2018
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Somewhere
#31
I think any attempt to change the progression curve would mandate a return to gMS item enhancement which will never happen because super scrolls have been around for so long. It's kind of hard to claim the server is gMS-like though when the RNG element has been all but removed from scrolling, enhancing, and base cubing. I mean, players skip half the gear progression that official servers go through because they can just use Tyrants forever.
I think it's a detrimental design choice, but that ship sailed long ago.
 
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guotung

New member
Jul 19, 2018
5
1
3
Australia
#32
I think that monster park is there for everyone to progress even at end game. It is both for newbie and experienced players to farm and earn the same amount of mesos through time and hard work. I don't get why there should be a comparison between how much a newbie and a late game player earns. If you nerf MP or introduce something only for late game players, wouldn't that be making the rich richer and poor poorer? Keep the current MP system. It benefits for both newbies and experienced players. In my opinion i think that the server made MP that way so that beginners could progress easily to mid-game which adhere to the purpose of private server (ease your progression through to mid game or so to say the "first wall of progression" aka 30-40k stat)
 

Spyro

H.Gamemaster
Staff member
Jul 17, 2018
1,085
142
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Dragon's Cave
#33
I think any attempt to change the progression curve would mandate a return to gMS item enhancement which will never happen because super scrolls have been around for so long. It's kind of hard to claim the server is gMS-like though when the RNG element has been all but removed from scrolling, enhancing, and base cubing. I mean, players skip half the gear progression that official servers go through because they can just use Tyrants forever.
I think it's a detrimental design choice, but that ship sailed long ago.
^
 
Oct 8, 2018
100
11
18
Elfville
#34
Instead of raising drop rate % cap, why not increase nodestone drop rate % by a rate of 0.5% per plevel?
Isn't 600% drop enough? Not to mention DR is mainly used for dailies only. If we increase DR% cap, all its going to do is just help us finish dailies faster.
However, if we increase the node drop rate % by 0.5 per plevel, even those who are P100 will only get an increase of 50% nodes per hour. With this, players might actually be more motivated to quickly progress to 250 instead of doing it "for the sake of doing it"
Furthermore, by raising the node drop %, we're effectively introducing more nodes into the market, helping to combat rising node prices.

As for botting, I have a radical suggestion. Simply do a bot test on ALL active players (meaning characters that are actually moving / using skills) every 30 minutes. However when the bot test is being conducted, the combo kill number that the player had and any buffs they are using, is paused. If they pass the bot test, they resume grinding as per normal.
However should they fail the bot test X times (X being the number that be decided by the Elluel staff team) be automatically warped to a town. If they are still continuing their skills for 5 minutes, then they will be banned according to the framework set out in ToS under botting.
I'm sure that there'll be some mistakes/issues with this autoban system in the beginning, but ultimately it is for a better server.
 
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Likes: Konada

Cat

Member
Jul 19, 2018
37
19
8
Banned
#35
Instead of raising drop rate % cap, why not increase nodestone drop rate % by a rate of 0.5% per plevel?
Isn't 600% drop enough? Not to mention DR is mainly used for dailies only. If we increase DR% cap, all its going to do is just help us finish dailies faster.
However, if we increase the node drop rate % by 0.5 per plevel, even those who are P100 will only get an increase of 50% nodes per hour. With this, players might actually be more motivated to quickly progress to 250 instead of doing it "for the sake of doing it"
Furthermore, by raising the node drop %, we're effectively introducing more nodes into the market, helping to combat rising node prices.

As for botting, I have a radical suggestion. Simply do a bot test on ALL active players (meaning characters that are actually moving / using skills) every 30 minutes. However when the bot test is being conducted, the combo kill number that the player had and any buffs they are using, is paused. If they pass the bot test, they resume grinding as per normal.
However should they fail the bot test X times (X being the number that be decided by the Elluel staff team) be automatically warped to a town. If they are still continuing their skills for 5 minutes, then they will be banned according to the framework set out in ToS under botting.
I'm sure that there'll be some mistakes/issues with this autoban system in the beginning, but ultimately it is for a better server.
This is the 2000 iq suggestion, Aries needs more people like you. wencm
 
Jul 19, 2018
57
21
8
El Nath
#36
Instead of raising drop rate % cap, why not increase nodestone drop rate % by a rate of 0.5% per plevel?
Isn't 600% drop enough? Not to mention DR is mainly used for dailies only. If we increase DR% cap, all its going to do is just help us finish dailies faster.
However, if we increase the node drop rate % by 0.5 per plevel, even those who are P100 will only get an increase of 50% nodes per hour. With this, players might actually be more motivated to quickly progress to 250 instead of doing it "for the sake of doing it"
Furthermore, by raising the node drop %, we're effectively introducing more nodes into the market, helping to combat rising node prices.

As for botting, I have a radical suggestion. Simply do a bot test on ALL active players (meaning characters that are actually moving / using skills) every 30 minutes. However when the bot test is being conducted, the combo kill number that the player had and any buffs they are using, is paused. If they pass the bot test, they resume grinding as per normal.
However should they fail the bot test X times (X being the number that be decided by the Elluel staff team) be automatically warped to a town. If they are still continuing their skills for 5 minutes, then they will be banned according to the framework set out in ToS under botting.
I'm sure that there'll be some mistakes/issues with this autoban system in the beginning, but ultimately it is for a better server.
What....? This doesn't even make sense, you're asking for node prices to drop, therefore making node farming less profitable, and thus making MP farming even more profitable.
And the second part is just plain lazy considering how botters have the ability to identify when someone is bot-checking them. If anything code analysis should be run on that program they are using to identify how they are able to tell when people are trying to report them.

On-topic, don't forget that endgame players (not those 35k~45k ones for sure) have access to paragon dungeon, and so have access to what can potentially be a lucrative market.
Given the piss-poor method to obtain the Nova coins required for a box this isn't going to be viable for now, but hopefully phase 3 makes it much more accessible for coins to be obtained. Of course with the piss-poor pass rates and how the 16* and above boxes probably contribute more to dpm, we can expect high demand for such boxes.
 
Oct 8, 2018
100
11
18
Elfville
#37
I don't understand why everyone keeps going back to the same topic of farming MP..?
Isn't the whole purpose of this thread to suggest potential ways to balance out the economy? I'm simply suggesting that by increasing node drop rate for the higher level players, we can potentially bring about a "I think I'll farm nodes today" instead of "oh ill do 200 runs of MP today"
Plus, you seem to say that node prices are set by the staff members. Newsflash, they aren't. You (the community) decide what these prices are. Did a staff member mandate "oh okay this eq must sell at this price or higher"?? No they didn't.
Plus, since you said "the second part is plain lazy" my suggestion to you is that you join Nova and code something that can combat botting programs.
Furthurmore, code analysis isn't something you can just snap your fingers and magically "oh here's your analysis, the code is...."
You're asking Nova to sit down and scroll through pages upon pages of junk code just to identity how they are able to detect when someone is bot testing them? Do you realise that to hide the botting code, you have to hide it between junk code? The more junk code you have inside, the lower the chance of tripping the hacking detection. If the botting program has an if/else loop coded, no matter what a staff member does, the if/else loop will kill itself, making the botter appear innocent.
Hence why I said an automated bot test. Automated bot tests have a chance of not being detected by the if/else loop (assuming the botting program uses one) as its a system mandated check. If a staff member physically clicks on the character, you realise its also an input to the program? This input may be part of the conditions for an if/else loop to break out of.

TLDR : learn how code and the economy of an MMORPG works before saying "that's plain lazy" or implying that an economy will crash just because we up node drop rate for higher leveled players.
 

Kit

Member
Oct 20, 2018
17
19
13
Singapore
#38
I don't understand why everyone keeps going back to the same topic of farming MP..?
Isn't the whole purpose of this thread to suggest potential ways to balance out the economy? I'm simply suggesting that by increasing node drop rate for the higher level players, we can potentially bring about a "I think I'll farm nodes today" instead of "oh ill do 200 runs of MP today"
Plus, you seem to say that node prices are set by the staff members. Newsflash, they aren't. You (the community) decide what these prices are. Did a staff member mandate "oh okay this eq must sell at this price or higher"?? No they didn't.
Increased node drop rate > Decrease in node prices since more supply, same demand > Basically end game players still farm MP. Doesn't solve anything. This isn't anything new, it just shifts things here and there, doesn't make a difference.

Hence why I said an automated bot test. Automated bot tests have a chance of not being detected by the if/else loop (assuming the botting program uses one) as its a system mandated check. If a staff member physically clicks on the character, you realise its also an input to the program? This input may be part of the conditions for an if/else loop to break out of.

TLDR : learn how code and the economy of an MMORPG works before saying "that's plain lazy" or implying that an economy will crash just because we up node drop rate for higher leveled players.
I am pretty sure an automated bot test has long been considered and either implemented with restrictions since you will be bot-checking players who are spamming skills in towns. Want an automated bot-check that only happens on maps with monsters? Sure, manually put in the codes for all towns to not bot-check. I doubt they'll do that, it is stupid.

Also the botters are probably not using injection programs. Meaning they use 3rd party macros to bot, hence you will realise only a few classes are used for botting since it makes their lives easier. This isn't your typical "turn on my cheat engine" kind of bot we're talking about. When a staff clicks on a player (especially in GM hide), it requests data from the server. No data is being sent or received on the botter's end. The botter only gets a packet when another player enters the map which needs to be displayed on the botter's screen, or if the GM does something to the map like stop spawning monster etc.

TLDR: Learn to bot before you learn to anti-bot. And yes, your suggestion is plain lazy and I don't think you even know how they bot on Aries. There is no way you can prevent botting, you can only constantly ban the botters. Bot check every 30 minutes means more chances for players to accidentally type in the wrong answers hence more accidental bans. And you'd think a bot check every 30 minutes wouldn't make players quit the game?

Reason why botting is so tough to control here? Because botters are using VMware where they can just change their HWID and IP address and return. Therefore again, solution is to just keep banning them.

Since we're on the crazy ideas topic, I say we make arcane orbs tradable and an increased arcane orb drop rate that scales with Paragon. New market, end game players have new things to farm along with Nodestones that they can sell, and everyone would be happier since we can do less daily quests for that sweet sweet arcane power boost. Very stupid idea indeed.
 
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